Can flute-type keys be added to a standard high D whistle

[andy_skiff]

sweetheart has keyed whistles called "Killourhy Model Whistles", but with max 3 keys.

http://www.sweetheartflute.com/killoury.html

[Chuck_Clark]

sweetheart has keyed whistles called "Killourhy Model Whistles", but with max 3 keys.

http://www.sweetheartflute.com/killoury.html

The keys on the top two whistles appear to be precisely what I am asking about. Could someone tell me what they're properly called and where they might be purchased?

[ytliek]

I'd ask the maker himself.

http://www.sweetheartflute.com/killoury.html

[MTGuru]

The keys on the top two whistles appear to be precisely what I am asking about.

But, but ... Now I'm confused.

Those are accidental keys, for G# and D#. I thought you wanted plate keys to cover the main holes with direct action, not levers that are closed by default.

[Chuck_Clark]

The keys on the top two whistles appear to be precisely what I am asking about.

But, but ... Now I'm confused.

Those are accidental keys, for G# and D#. I thought you wanted plate keys to cover the main holes with direct action, not levers that are closed by default.

Sorry, unspecific language, I was referring to the key structures covering the accidental holes. What I was interested in doing was using the same type of mechanical key but placed on a main hole. Moreover, perhaps I misunderstood what I was seeing. I thought that the keys would offer the option of resting in the open position and being manually closed by direct finger pressure.

[david_h]

Could a 'woodwind' technician braze or solder the keys from a scrapped boehm system piccolo onto a whistle ? Are such keys available as spares ?

I was thinking that it might need softer pads and the spacing along the rod changed.

[whistlecollector]

The keys on the top two whistles appear to be precisely what I am asking about.

But, but ... Now I'm confused.

Those are accidental keys, for G# and D#. I thought you wanted plate keys to cover the main holes with direct action, not levers that are closed by default.

Sorry, unspecific language, I was referring to the key structures covering the accidental holes. What I was interested in doing was using the same type of mechanical key but placed on a main hole. Moreover, perhaps I misunderstood what I was seeing. I thought that the keys would offer the option of resting in the open position and being manually closed by direct finger pressure.

I think the answer to this would be an unequivocal YES. Just be aware that accidental keys one old style woodwinds of this kind are always "closed" keys -- you press on the key to OPEN the hole. You're actually looking for "open" keys that will CLOSE the hole when you press on them...

Two methods pop to mind immediately: one is to make a wood whistle with pillars and keys, but with the keys only closing the six diatonic holes. In stead of keys that work just like the ones on the Killoury style whistle, I'd do this. Take a look at the G# key on that whistle: I would simply line up six of those along the whistle body, but in stead of them being "closed" keys (that open when you press the touchplate), I would spring them to be "open" keys, then solder comfortable, yet tactile touch plates immediately on top of the pad bowls. That way, you'd hold the whistle with your fingers on the open key touchplates, and you just put your finger down on the key to close the holes you want. This would be an undoubtedly expensive whistle -- but people with worse deficits have access to cool recorders, so why not a six keyed whistle for folks that have difficulties sealing the vents? The other, and I think probably less expensive option, would be what I suggested earlier: have a whistlesmith add paetzholt recorder type keys of brass on to an ordinary brass whistle. A curved segment of brass that has some kind of soft pad material in the inside curve and that pivots on a rod and is sprung open should do the trick for you very easily!

I still wonder, though: have you thought of trying soft rubber finger cots?

Regards

[whistlecollector]

Could a 'woodwind' technician braze or solder the keys from a scrapped boehm system piccolo onto a whistle ? Are such keys available as spares ?

I was thinking that it might need softer pads and the spacing along the rod changed.

Again, the answer here would be "yes" -- but would raise other concerns. Most notably: whistles don't have tone hole chimneys, so the relatively flat keys will be pressing against a rounded whistle body. Also: whistle and piccolo tone holes aren't in the same location on the body, so the connecting rods from the piccolo would have to be cut to new lengths; extra keys would have to be removed. Finally, the tone holes on a piccolo aren't always in a straight line, so the keys might not line up with the holes of a whistle. It might be possible to salvage tone hole chimneys from an ancient metal clarinet or similar -- making sure that its chimneys are attached to the body and not part of the body!

The obvious solution there is to buy a whistle mouthpiece designed to fit a piccolo body. E.g. http://www.ethnicwind.com/#!chromatic_whistles/c21z5

Regards

[pancelticpiper]

Here are flute-type keys... well they're actual flute keys, got from a Boehm flute maker... that uilleann piper and pipemaker Patsy Brown used for his fully-keyed uilleann chanter (it has no open holes).

I think this is what the OP means, having easy-to-operate keys which do the work of sealing the holes for you.



The keys which give the chromatic notes on a wood flute or on the whistles above are diametrically opposite to the keys on the uilleann chanter above. The former stay closed sealing their holes until the key is pressed. The latter are open-standing keys (like most of the keys on the Boehm flute) which stay open until pressed, in fact mimicking the way the fingers work on open holes, and were utilized by Boehm to allow narrow fingers to close impossibly large holes.

To make such a whistle, as was said above, one could get small Boehm piccolo or flute keys and make a simple rod mechanism (no linkages would be needed). Yes chimneys would have to be soldered over each of the whistle's six holes.

It could be done by any experienced flute repair technician but would be a load of work.

Far cheaper to get a used Boehm plateau piccolo and stick a whistle head on it.

[Daniel_Bingamon]

Possibilities are endless. You can always make bigger toneholes with keys to get a fuller sound.

There are drawback however. It has an effect on ornamentation of notes.
One whistles, this can be compensated to some extent because keys can close down to a curve surface instead of a chimney on the toneholes. A chimney is hard to get a partial closure because of its inherent design.

[ObieWhistler]

As someone who lost a finger many years ago just above the first joint, I think I understand your problem. Since you prefer a cylindrical whistle, it would not be difficult for someone to make a plastic piece that would slip onto the whistle (snug fit so it doesn't move around - no permanent change to your instrument). This piece would have a channel cut in it perpendicular to the body of the whistle for your finger such that the tone hole would be at the bottom of it. When pressed down against the whistle your finger would have no place to go except to cover the hole. I might be able to help if you don't have a machinist who could make such a thing for you.
http://www.oberlin.net/~irishsession/im ... finder.pdf

[david_h]

Do the Susato keys need a chimney? I was wondering if a softer leather or closed cell foam pad on the Boehm-style key would seal without a chimney. It would be being pushed closed by a finger rather than a spring.

[pancelticpiper]

The Susato keys are pretty clever and work well. As I recollect (I've tried them but never owned one) the key is curved to match the curvature of the whistle and it has a closed-cell foam pad on it (like foam earplugs). I know at least one pipemaker who uses sliced earplugs for the keywork on his uilleann pipes because of their superior never-fail sealing of the holes.

Susato whistles, because of what they're made of, are really easy to modify (easy to saw, carve, and glue). I can imagine getting a bunch of their key parts and making one's own modified fully-keyed whistle.

Openstanding keys such as the OP needs still need a spring, but the spring keeps the key open. Openstanding key springs can be rather light because it doesn't take much force to hold the key up. (Closed-key springs have to be stronger because they need to keep a key positively sealed on a hole.)

[Chuck_Clark]

Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner - a death in the family takes priority.

I have talked to a local woodwind repair tech who says the work is beyond his ability. A whistle maker friend is sending me an instrument to try that looks promising using a slight hole modification and chimney on only those holes that are currently a problem. Beyond that, you guys have given me enough ideas to suggest that my Winter might not be as dull as they often are. I extend my most grateful appreciation to all those that have taken the time and effort to consider this problem.

[Chuck_Clark]

Resurrecting an old thread to tell everyone of my gratitude to Mack Hoover, a master whistle maker and very classy guy who seems to have solved, or at least significantly eased my problem.

I'll post a picture later if anyone's interested, but what he's done is take one of his tunable PVC whistles, a lovely instrument in its own right, and somehow retrofitted certain holes with thin metal (brass?) liners that sightly raise the rim of the hole, significantly easing my problems with both locating and sealing the hole. This had been quite a problem due to deformity and loss of sensation in certain fingers.

The brass/white PVC hybrid is a very attractive whistle to begin with and unlike other changes that have been suggested, the liners don't detract from the instrument's appearance - they aren't even visible more than a couple of feet away. More to the point, I'm playing without the pain and occasional missed noted that I had been enduring.

Thanks. Mack.