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Re: Humphrey Whistle (again)
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:45 am
by glauber
DADGAD wrote:A few days ago I received a Humphrey narrow bore D whistle (yes, because of Peter Labin I had to try the just temperament!). I’m crazy about this whistle. After I opened up the package and played my first tune, my wife popped out of her office and asked what whistle I was playing. Usually, upon receipt of a new whistle I’m in for several hours of mockery and ridicule. However, instead of derision, she told me that she absolutely loved the sound (this coming from a harp player who is not a great fan of whistles).
Just a quick note about my whistle. I bought one too, also because of Peter Laban's review, but i wanted to be different, so i got a wide bore one. I was interested in just intonation too, but i decided to try something else, and Gary was willing to oblige, so
now i have the first whistle in the world that's been made using a Werkmeister III tempered scale. Not even Jessie has one! (yet)
To explain: Herr Werkmeister invented a system for tuning pipe organs, way back in the times when the music was young. It's a compromise between just intonation and equal temperament. Many such systems exist, but Werkmeister was the one most often used for organs, so i thought it would work fine for whistles too. The orginal tuning system is centered in C, but we changed it so it's centered in D. Paul Fremantle from the flutemakers Yahoo group helped me with the data.
So how does it sound? As a wide bore should, it has a large sound, and pleasantly fat bottom end. The second octave requires some push, but nothing too bad. All in all, a very balanced whistle, pure sounding, loud, efficient. The closest i have to it in feel is the Silkstone aluminum alloy, which has always been one of my favourite whistles. But the Silkstone's sound is mellower than Gary's.
The tempered scale sounds very sweet; sometimes i even think it's too sweet. All notes, up to the top of the second octave, are pleasant sounding. Both the F# and the B notes are a little flatter than in equal temperament, as expected, although Werkmeister is closer to equal than to just temperament.
I'm hoping to use it in session tomorrow night, and that will be the first opportunity to see how this whistle's scale blends with the other instruments. More on that later.
g
Re: Humphrey Whistle (again)
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:07 am
by Azalin
glauber wrote:I'm hoping to use it in session tomorrow night, and that will be the first opportunity to see how this whistle's scale blends with the other instruments. More on that later.
g
You'll certainly sound "out of tune" with others since you're not tuned like them, won't you?
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:14 am
by glauber
Probably. The question is if it will sound bad or pleasant. It will be "less out of tune" than a just tempered instrument.
In reality, in playing we always make minute adjustments (if we're listening to our sound and the others) and everything is a compromise. We have pipes that are tuned to just temperament in D playing together with equal-temperament accordions. And in the end it all somehow works.
I'd expect this whistle to sound nicest playing with a fiddle.
I'll take another whistle too, in case this one sounds horrible. But the more i play it, the more i think it will work.
Re: Humphrey Whistle (again)
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:43 am
by Bloomfield
glauber wrote:The tempered scale sounds very sweet; sometimes i even think it's too sweet. All notes, up to the top of the second octave, are pleasant sounding. Both the F# and the B notes are a little flatter than in just temperament, as expected.
Wouldn't that be a little sharper than just and a little flatter than equal, for the F# and the B?
Sounds very cool.
Re: Humphrey Whistle (again)
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:47 am
by glauber
Bloomfield wrote:glauber wrote:The tempered scale sounds very sweet; sometimes i even think it's too sweet. All notes, up to the top of the second octave, are pleasant sounding. Both the F# and the B notes are a little flatter than in just temperament, as expected.
Wouldn't that be a little sharper than just and a little flatter than equal, for the F# and the B?
Sounds very cool.
Flatter than equal, you're right. I'll phix the original post. Thanks!
Here are the deviations from equal temperament, in cents, that we used (from Paul Fremantle):
Code: Select all
D 0
E -3
F# -7
G 0
A -1
B -6
Cnat -1
C# -9
And the deviations, in cents, for just temperament:
Code: Select all
D 0
E +4
F# -14
G -2
A +2
B -16
Cnat +14
C# -12
g
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:09 am
by Bloomfield
Very insteresting to see the variation on the second step (E) between Werkmeister and Just. Can you record a clip of a scale and post it? How does it feel playing in G?
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:21 am
by glauber
G sounds good. I just bought a fancy schmancy MP3 recorder from Eskin, and i'll record some scales when i get it (in a few days). I could also record a few tunes that would be useful for people to learn how to play Irish music from.
Another piece of data that would be interesting to have would be to measure the deviations in the scale in the Generations whistles to see how they fit in this picture.
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:37 pm
by glauber
You can always join the
Just Intonation Network!
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:24 pm
by Hiro Ringo
Sounds exciting. You start to have very nice determination,Glauber!!
From what I know and what I experienced,with different intonation,the articulation to make the whistle sound the best is also different. I remember a pianist who loves her piano tuned to Werkmeister critisized someone like "he doesnt deserve Werkmeister,Equal Temperament is enough for him,he will never know how to take advantage of Werkmeister".
Werkmeister whose D scale is the closest to Just Intonation....cool!
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:26 pm
by glauber
And i was reading a page today on how to tune a keyboard instrument by ear, and it said:
- well-tempered tunings are easy to do; equal temperament is very hard.
- in the past nobody said "i tuned my piano to Werckmeister!"; they just said "i tuned my piano!". Whatever works...
I found it again! It's here:
http://home.mindspring.com/~judithconrad/id2.html
I've been spelling the guy's name wrong, though. It's Wer
ckmeister.
Another page with interesting information, though probably not 100% accurate:
http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/midiutil/
He has a Bach thing there, played in equal temperament:
http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/midiutil/bachmedl.mid
and in Werckmeister:
http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/midiutil/bachtemp.mid
Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:43 pm
by Hiro Ringo
>in the past nobody said "i tuned my piano to Werckmeister!";
>they just said "i tuned my piano!". Whatever works...
Yup. Thus,even until during 1950s,pianos were able to be tuned to various temeperament. Cuz they just tried to tune their piano to "good" temperament,not equal temperament. Easy to imagine what happened anywhere before 1950s. There must have been much more variations on tunings.
Although having one standard really works for commercial purpose. If a fair amount of people have similar taste,merchants can easily count their money. Thats what have happened until recently I would presume.
The fact that the taste and style of music differ from region to region doesnt fit in commercial purpose,at least not well. Need one big standard to earn big money.
Well,anyway things keep changing so fast that I am getting dizzy. The days when almost nobody ever tried to listen to temperament issues seem to belong to a different age. Not so bad feeling though. I believe I live in good days.
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:32 am
by Flyingcursor
I wonder if I could tune my Hammered Dulcimer in Just temprement.
Has anyone tried anything like that?
Is there a web site for these Humphrey whistles? I hate to ask Peter since I've been starting arguments with him lately.
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:43 am
by vomitbunny
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:48 am
by Cayden
geek4music wrote:
I hate to ask Peter since I've been starting arguments with him lately.
For feck sake don't be silly :roll:
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:06 am
by glauber
geek4music wrote:I wonder if I could tune my Hammered Dulcimer in Just temprement.
Of course you can.
Just temperament is key-specific, though so you may find yourself retuning when you want to play in another key.
