Live 8

[SteveShaw]

Forgive me for interrupting some thoroughly well-deserved cynicism by pointing out that the exercise, as I understood it, was not to alert an indifferent world to the wonders of African music but rather to alert people in the developed world, many of whom couldn't find Africa on a map, to the connection between the behaviour of developed nations and poverty in Africa.

My experience of playing so-called world music to people who are interested in pop is that they soon go into the next room and put on the music they wanted to listen to all along. It isn't African music.

You could easily have found a couple of dozen African acts who'd have put on a fantastic show and who are well-known to largish niche markets in the west. But I suspect the people who watched would have been people who already understood the political situation, more or less. It wouldn't have been a massive audience.

I told you that the issue was constantly and appropriately to the fore all day at the Eden Project. There was no mistaking why we were there. And there's nothing wrong with celebrating the vibrant cultures of the peoples of Africa as part of raising our understanding. I'm a cynic all right where St. Bob is concerned but I am also capable of enjoying myself. And what we had in Cornwall was not "world music" - ALL the acts were African. And finally, though the event was hastily-arranged, more than ten times as many people applied for tickets as got them. And that's in Cornwall, one of the most sparsely-populated areas of the UK and in which you'll see very few black faces. Nobody "left the room" on Friday I can tell you! Theory is a fine thing but...

Steve

[Wombat]

Forgive me for interrupting some thoroughly well-deserved cynicism by pointing out that the exercise, as I understood it, was not to alert an indifferent world to the wonders of African music but rather to alert people in the developed world, many of whom couldn't find Africa on a map, to the connection between the behaviour of developed nations and poverty in Africa.

My experience of playing so-called world music to people who are interested in pop is that they soon go into the next room and put on the music they wanted to listen to all along. It isn't African music.

You could easily have found a couple of dozen African acts who'd have put on a fantastic show and who are well-known to largish niche markets in the west. But I suspect the people who watched would have been people who already understood the political situation, more or less. It wouldn't have been a massive audience.

I told you that the issue was constantly and appropriately to the fore all day at the Eden Project. There was no mistaking why we were there. And there's nothing wrong with celebrating the vibrant cultures of the peoples of Africa as part of raising our understanding. I'm a cynic all right where St. Bob is concerned but I am also capable of enjoying myself. And what we had in Cornwall was not "world music" - ALL the acts were African. And finally, though the event was hastily-arranged, more than ten times as many people applied for tickets as got them. And that's in Cornwall, one of the most sparsely-populated areas of the UK and in which you'll see very few black faces. Nobody "left the room" on Friday I can tell you! Theory is a fine thing but...

Steve

I don't see how you think this addresses my point. This grand-scale event wasn't about preaching to the converted nor was it about celebrating African culture. It was about dragging in a mass audience most of whom don't normally listen to African music—record sales will tell you that. I'm not saying what you had in Cornwall was superficial; if I lived nearby I would have been present. But the Cornwall concert wasn't on TV here. The London concert was.

What I was saying was that the purpose of the synchronised concerts was to bring to the attention of people who don't know much about Africa something about the situation of ordinary people there. To do that you present people everybody knows if you can get them. I didn't even watch the event. I've been listening to African music for over 30 years and love it. But I wasn't the target audience for the London concert and neither were you. Are you seriously suggesting the worldwide audience would have been the same had the Cornwall idea been used in London? If so, I wish I could agree but my experience of trying to raise interest in African music tells me that wouldn't happen. There's nothing theoretical about seeing people stop listening and start talking when music they don't like or understand comes on.

Of course nobody left the room where you were. You would have attracted the converted from all over. That's where I'd have been. But I don't believe it would have worked as the main drawcard in London or televised to philistines all over the world. That said, there's no reason why African acts couldn't have been included on the London bill. Well, they would have blown the aging rockers off stage so maybe there was a reason.

[SteveShaw]

Are you seriously suggesting the worldwide audience would have been the same had the Cornwall idea been used in London? If so, I wish I could agree but my experience of trying to raise interest in African music tells me that wouldn't happen. There's nothing theoretical about seeing people stop listening and start talking when music they don't like or understand comes on.

Of course nobody left the room where you were. You would have attracted the converted from all over. That's where I'd have been. But I don't believe it would have worked as the main drawcard in London or televised to philistines all over the world. That said, there's no reason why African acts couldn't have been included on the London bill. Well, they would have blown the aging rockers off stage so maybe there was a reason.

The "Cornwall idea" as you put it would never have come about had the London event included African musicians. Peter Gabriel of WOMAD and the good people at the Eden Project (who have a damn good track record of putting on adventurous music events by the way) were, rightly in my view, revolted by the fact that Geldof had almost completely excluded African acts. No-one's suggesting that an all-African event should have been used as the "main drawcard," but many were disgusted by the patronising way in which the Africans were snubbed. And, if you see the worldwide audience as philistines, I somehow doubt whether King Bob's the man to organise their mass education!

It's a pity that you weren't in Cornwall. The audience were overwhelmingly young and 60% of them were Cornish. There isn't a less multiculturally-aware area in the whole of the UK (my wife and I have been involved in education in the area for almost twenty years). "The converted" they weren't, but a good lot of 'em would have been well on the way by the day's end.

Steve

[OnTheMoor]

I'll take Barenaked Ladies, Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Daimond, Our Lady Peace and Great Big Sea over Beyonce and Will Smith anyday.

Did GBS play? ****, I don't think they ever showed that on tv here, I would have loved to see that.

Only a short set, Donkey Riding and Excursion, also their plane from Regina was cancelled so the only instrument that arrived was Sean's bodhran. Nonetheless, crowd enjoyed it.

Was Madonna speaking with a fake British accent?

[OutOfBreath]

...to the connection between the behaviour of developed nations and poverty in Africa.

Yeah, shame on all those developed nations for forcing Africans to breed children they can't feed, engage in behavior that spreads aids and other diseases like wild fire, and put up with dictators who steal most of the incoming aid before it gets anywhere near those who actually need it. :roll:

Most African poverty is the result of civil war and despotic government, not G8 influence.

I'm all for aiding Africa, but every time someone tries real aid, things that actually have a chance of improving the lives of the average African, they're shot down by the same kind of mush-minds that stand on most Live 8 stages and scream about how unfair G8 is to Africa. "Oh, you can't encourage them to use birth control, that will interfere with their culture!" Yada, yada, yada.

If you're going to help someone then help them with effective solutions - don't just poor more money down the same hole that led to the current situation! And if you're a millionaire many times over, put your own (*&^ money where your mouth is instead of giving a concert and writing off your appearance at more than face value on your taxes while shouting at those in the crowd about how G8 should be supporting Africa with tax dollars from the average Joe.

[SteveShaw]

...to the connection between the behaviour of developed nations and poverty in Africa.

Yeah, shame on all those developed nations for forcing Africans to breed children they can't feed, engage in behavior that spreads aids and other diseases like wild fire, and put up with dictators who steal most of the incoming aid before it gets anywhere near those who actually need it. :roll:

Most African poverty is the result of civil war and despotic government, not G8 influence.

By behaviour I take it you mean sex. Well how dare they! And if you're a subsistence farmer barely able to support your family with armed government-controlled bullies patrolling all around I don't see how you're going to be able to do much about that dictator who's making your life a misery. They do have this habit of not letting you organise.... And while you're correct to point to war and bad rulers as part of the problem, let's not forget who sold them the weapons in the first place, often in return for money from cash crops sold abroad when their own people were starving; and how our civilised western governments shore up repressive regimes for all manner of "political" reasons (the US in Central America and Chile in the 70s and 80s to name but a couple out of many examples - even Saddam, when Iran was getting a bit uppity with the US...); and how the multinational companies operate in the third world with a cast-iron grip, monopolising markets and exploiting local workers, enthusiastically supported by us in the name of "globalisation;" and how trading practices, protectionism and tariff barriers make fair trade impossible for developing countries. As for AIDS, look at the revolting - obscene - profits that multinational drug companies make....

Compared to all the nasty things we're responsible for in their countries, having sex seems like a fairly minor "crime..."

Steve

[Wombat]

...to the connection between the behaviour of developed nations and poverty in Africa.

Yeah, shame on all those developed nations for forcing Africans to breed children they can't feed, engage in behavior that spreads aids and other diseases like wild fire, and put up with dictators who steal most of the incoming aid before it gets anywhere near those who actually need it. :roll:

Thanks for shouting, John. Helps my comprehension heaps.

Let's take a really fruity example. What exactly are you proposing that the opposition in Zimbabwe do about Mugabe?

Most African poverty is the result of civil war and despotic government, not G8 influence.

Oh, that's true of continuing poverty in South Africa is it? It's perhaps also true of poverty in India is it, or is African poverty genetic?

I'm all for aiding Africa, but every time someone tries real aid, things that actually have a chance of improving the lives of the average African, they're shot down by the same kind of mush-minds that stand on most Live 8 stages and scream about how unfair G8 is to Africa. "Oh, you can't encourage them to use birth control, that will interfere with their culture!" Yada, yada, yada.

There is widespread oppositon in the west to attempts to educate aids-ravaged countries about condoms. The opposition wasn't coming from Bob Geldoff last time I looked.

Actually, both Westerners trying (professionally) to help and Africans themselves are agreed that the solution to African problems has to come from within Africa. It would be 30 years or more since agencies like Oxfam abandoned paternalistic models for self-help models. But the opposition to implementing self-help models comes as much from the west as it does from the local dictators. Liberation theology, for example, was attacked both by the regimes, who shot the most outspoken priests, and by the last Pope.

If you're going to help someone then help them with effective solutions - don't just poor more money down the same hole that led to the current situation!

What hole would that be? As I understand it, the main current target for people trying to help Africa is Western usary. Are you saying that that is no part of a just solution? Nobody thinks that that alone will solve the problem, do they? I would assume that persuading Western countries not to support regimes that deny basic human rights would also be part of the solution. There are many things that need to be done and no clearly morally acceptable solution to the problem of overpopulation.

And if you're a millionaire many times over, put your own (*&^ money where your mouth is instead of giving a concert and writing off your appearance at more than face value on your taxes while shouting at those in the crowd about how G8 should be supporting Africa with tax dollars from the average Joe.

Who, exactly, are you talking about? This smacks of false dichotomy to me. Wouldn't it be better to give the money and the concert? Why not?

[Wombat]

The "Cornwall idea" as you put it would never have come about had the London event included African musicians. Peter Gabriel of WOMAD and the good people at the Eden Project (who have a damn good track record of putting on adventurous music events by the way) were, rightly in my view, revolted by the fact that Geldof had almost completely excluded African acts. No-one's suggesting that an all-African event should have been used as the "main drawcard," but many were disgusted by the patronising way in which the Africans were snubbed.

OK, I see. We've been talking past eachother I think. I'm very impressed by WOMAD (and Gabriel) and I think they and other organisations have done an enormous amount to alert a small but important audience to the accessibility of roots music from all over the world. Well, they've made it more accessible—done their part like the Lomaxes, Harry Smith and Chris Strachwitz before them. If I compare what's in the shops now to what was available when I was a boy, the kids today don't have anything like the hard work I had to do to start to find out about great roots music from many countries. Once you really get the bug, you'll find it much easier to take it further these days.

And, if you see the worldwide audience as philistines, I somehow doubt whether King Bob's the man to organise their mass education!

I really don't know what my position is on this, Steve. As an idealistic lad, I used to think that all the mass audience had to do was hear Duke Ellington and Robert Johnson and the sheer power of the music would speak to them. That was just wrong. So I don't know how many people would be interested in roots music if they had suitable exposure to it.

I think people are much the same with music and with social issues. I'm not sure that it's fair to call them philistine. I think that only a small number of people see music as something much more than a soundtrack to their lives. The people I'm talking about—some of them friends of mine after all—aren't fools. They just aren't curious to hear music that is different or which sends chills down the spine. They don't go looking for music; it finds them. They mainly listen to music you can talk over. Some of them like a video clip you can watch as you listen. I don't understand their attitude, from the inside, at all.

I'm not that optimisitic about the 'big' London event having widespread lasting effects. Sure, I don't really think Sir Bob knows what he is doing as far as helping Africa goes. I've been teaching population ethics and famine relief as part of an environmental science course for 15 years and I wouldn't know what to tell a mass audience. I can't recommend any solution to my students that I have a lot of confidence in. I've talked to, taught (and learnt from) quite a few Africans devoting their lives to finding solutions.

My hope really is this. Millions of people will now know there is a problem and that it is vast in scope. Millions will know that we can do something about it, even if it is hard now to be clear about what the best strategy is. A small percentage of those people will perhaps have their lives changed—what looks schmaltzy and cynical to you and me might not do so to an impressionable 15 year old. A penny will drop and they will find out about Africa and about poverty and they will educate themselves. Perhaps at some point there will be a snowball effect. I've seen my city go from one recycling bin—mine—utilised on my street 15 years ago to 95% of households recycling today.

It's a pity that you weren't in Cornwall. The audience were overwhelmingly young and 60% of them were Cornish. There isn't a less multiculturally-aware area in the whole of the UK (my wife and I have been involved in education in the area for almost twenty years). "The converted" they weren't, but a good lot of 'em would have been well on the way by the day's end.

Steve

Yes it is a pity. I would have enjoyed that.

[GaryKelly]

Wombat, BBC Cornwall have some stuff at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cornwall/content/a ... ture.shtml

you might be interested in, video highlights in the "Africa Calling" banner, right-hand sidebar.

[Wombat]

Wombat, BBC Cornwall have some stuff at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cornwall/content/a ... ture.shtml

you might be interested in, video highlights in the "Africa Calling" banner, right-hand sidebar.

Thanks, Gary. I think a lot of us would like to see that. I'm hopeless at getting film and radio to work with my dial-up connection at home but I must do something about that. I have an eMac that's only a couple of years old so I assume there shouldn't be a major problem, besides my defeatist attitude to new computer developments that I haven't yet mastered.

[SteveShaw]

Hi Wombat. We're together on this. If I hadn't been on the wrong side of Oz at Easter I'd have let you buy me a pint!

Cheers

Steve

[SteveShaw]

Couple of things to muse over here, the first on defence spending vs. aid:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g8/story/0,13 ... 26,00.html

...and the other an amazing act of contrition from an ex-prime minister:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g8/story/0,13 ... 17,00.html

Steve

[Wombat]

Hi Wombat. We're together on this. If I hadn't been on the wrong side of Oz at Easter I'd have let you buy me a pint!

Cheers

Steve

Just let me know when you're coming out, Steve, and I'll set them up.