Can you help me learn more about this flute?

[mvhplank]

I was in an area antique mall the other week and my companion pointed out a 6-key wooden flute sitting in a display case.

I went to get someone to unlock the case and had a closer, skeptical look at it.

It appears to me to be not old, of some sort of wood (not black)--I would have said "rosewood," and after a quick web search, I think it's too dark for cocus. I'm not real impressed with the quality of the wood stock, having found what I consider flaws, but they don't affect function. The springs are tight, the pads are new-looking, it has corked joints (three pieces) and a tuning slide in the head. The head appears to be lined with the same brass (?) tubing you see in the slide, which tells me the wood will eventually crack as it shrinks against the unyielding metal--indeed, I see small fissures on the side opposite the embrochure.

It is marked with these three lines:

Weikert
1st Quality
Made in Germany

I e-mailed Terry McGee and he never heard of such and suggested that "Weikert" was the importer, who added the stamp.

I've googled "weikert flute germany" and many other search combinations and have turned up nothing even close.

Well, of course I ended up buying it ($125 less a 10% cash discount), and oiled it inside and out before doing anything else. Now I'm working on making the adjustment from my old wooden Boehm flute. I'll guess the intonation is OK, but it's a more challenging instrument than the one I've been playing for, um, lots of years, and I'm bending so many tones with my fingering that it may actually be OK and only my own fault if it sounds bad.

Any idea about it's origin?

I gotta run, but if there's interest I can snap some pictures and post them.

Thanks!
Marguerite

[Cork]

I was in an area antique mall the other week and my companion pointed out a 6-key wooden flute sitting in a display case.

I went to get someone to unlock the case and had a closer, skeptical look at it.

It appears to me to be not old, of some sort of wood (not black)--I would have said "rosewood," and after a quick web search, I think it's too dark for cocus. I'm not real impressed with the quality of the wood stock, having found what I consider flaws, but they don't affect function. The springs are tight, the pads are new-looking, it has corked joints (three pieces) and a tuning slide in the head. The head appears to be lined with the same brass (?) tubing you see in the slide, which tells me the wood will eventually crack as it shrinks against the unyielding metal--indeed, I see small fissures on the side opposite the embrochure.

It is marked with these three lines:

Weikert
1st Quality
Made in Germany

I e-mailed Terry McGee and he never heard of such and suggested that "Weikert" was the importer, who added the stamp.

I've googled "weikert flute germany" and many other search combinations and have turned up nothing even close.

Well, of course I ended up buying it ($125 less a 10% cash discount), and oiled it inside and out before doing anything else. Now I'm working on making the adjustment from my old wooden Boehm flute. I'll guess the intonation is OK, but it's a more challenging instrument than the one I've been playing for, um, lots of years, and I'm bending so many tones with my fingering that it may actually be OK and only my own fault if it sounds bad.

Any idea about it's origin?

I gotta run, but if there's interest I can snap some pictures and post them.

Thanks!
Marguerite

To be honest, I've never heard of that particular maker, but then, in the history of flute making, just how many flute makers have there ever been, and of them just how many have become famous? Many makers, but relatively few famous, I'd say. So, my congratulations to you for being willing to take a chance, but at least you had the opportunity to have it in your hands before purchase.

From what I have seen, right here on the C&F FF, Terry McGee appears to be an authority when it comes to older wood flutes, so I suspect whatever he has had to say about your flute bears weight and holds water, so to speak.

Like you, I don't worry too much about something less than "perfect" grain in the wood, indeed, one of my staples is a keyless Sweetheart which has a most visible knot in its grain, a trait not uncommon in Sweetheart flutes, and that knot hasn't budged, at all, after years of regular use.

Could a lined head joint foment a crack? Statistically, it seems so. However, at least you gave the flute an oiling, good for you!

[Jon C.]

I was in an area antique mall the other week and my companion pointed out a 6-key wooden flute sitting in a display case.

I went to get someone to unlock the case and had a closer, skeptical look at it.

It appears to me to be not old, of some sort of wood (not black)--I would have said "rosewood," and after a quick web search, I think it's too dark for cocus. I'm not real impressed with the quality of the wood stock, having found what I consider flaws, but they don't affect function. The springs are tight, the pads are new-looking, it has corked joints (three pieces) and a tuning slide in the head. The head appears to be lined with the same brass (?) tubing you see in the slide, which tells me the wood will eventually crack as it shrinks against the unyielding metal--indeed, I see small fissures on the side opposite the embrochure.

It is marked with these three lines:

Weikert
1st Quality
Made in Germany

I e-mailed Terry McGee and he never heard of such and suggested that "Weikert" was the importer, who added the stamp.

I've googled "weikert flute germany" and many other search combinations and have turned up nothing even close.

Well, of course I ended up buying it ($125 less a 10% cash discount), and oiled it inside and out before doing anything else. Now I'm working on making the adjustment from my old wooden Boehm flute. I'll guess the intonation is OK, but it's a more challenging instrument than the one I've been playing for, um, lots of years, and I'm bending so many tones with my fingering that it may actually be OK and only my own fault if it sounds bad.

Any idea about it's origin?

I gotta run, but if there's interest I can snap some pictures and post them.

Thanks!
Marguerite

Hi,
The wood is probably a form of Madagscar Ebony, looks kind of like cocuswood, but smells like meldewed socks when it is cut.
Probably has "German silver" keys, made from nickel. Brass slide, with a nickel silver sleave on the female slide. This type of wood sometimes gets surface checks, when it dries out. The head may not crack, if you keep it humidified at 50% humdity and keep it away from the heating and air conditioning system!
Sounds like the tuning may be a challenge... How is the tuning between octaves?
Sure post a photo, so we can see what it looks like.
Probably made in the late 1800's.
The Germans even sold there flutes in the Sears and Roebucks catalog! SO you can imagine that there is a variety to German flutes, some good, some bad...

[mvhplank]

Thanks for the feedback--I'll snap some pictures after the sun comes up and post them.

Re cracks in the headjoint--I inherited a piccolo from a great uncle that cracked severely in the head joint. I traded a Boehm system piccolo to my flute fixer in exchange for the repair. The last time I tried to play it with anyone, we couldn't figure out what key it was in--not very satisfactory! Maybe I'll get it back out when my friend with the electronic tuner comes by and see how the octaves are on the new guy, too.

More later,
Marguerite

PS--I had assumed for decades that some arthritic damage to my left hand would keep me from playing an Irish flute. But this new flute and I have come to an accommodation and we seem to be working pretty well together. I'm a long way from really getting up to speed, although I am beginning to feel more confident. Who knew?

[Cork]

...Now I'm working on making the adjustment from my old wooden Boehm flute...

More than your new-to-you 6-key wood flute, that "old" wood Boehm flute got my attention. For instance, "old' wood flutes have not been made in the United States since about the year 1920, virtually all of which are pitched at A=435.

So, just to satisfy my curiosity, please, could you tell me something more about it? I am an open G# Boehm player, long accustomed to such "old" flutes, pitched at A=435, which indeed can be played at A=440, although I also have a couple of custom made, open G# silver flutes, of A=440 pitch.

TIA!

[mvhplank]

...Now I'm working on making the adjustment from my old wooden Boehm flute...

More than your new-to-you 6-key wood flute, that "old" wood Boehm flute got my attention. For instance, "old' wood flutes have not been made in the United States since about the year 1920, virtually all of which are pitched at A=435.

So, just to satisfy my curiosity, please, could you tell me something more about it? I am an open G# Boehm player, long accustomed to such "old" flutes, pitched at A=435, which indeed can be played at A=440, although I also have a couple of custom made, open G# silver flutes, of A=440 pitch.

TIA!

Bless your heart--I thought I'd bored everyone to death about my Boehm flutes.

My pride and joy is a 1916 Haynes (of Boston) with sterling silver keys (closed keys, offset G, C foot). It was indeed made to A=435 but I've pushed the head cork in (no doubt to the detriment of my octave tuning) and I can play at A=440 if I'm careful of not lipping flat. I have another, my first wooden Boehm, by H. Bettony of Boston. I suspect it was in a military band as it is stamped "USQMC" (best guess = U.S. Quartermaster Corps). I bought it nearly 30 years ago from my current flute-fixer's dad. He said it dated from the 1940s. I never saw a reason to doubt him, but it IS normally A=435 (head cork, again) and I have no documentation, whereas Haynes had the record of when the flute with my serial number was made.

Is an "open G#" one of those where you have to use your pinky to keep the key closed when I normally would use my pinky to add the G#/Ab when needed? If so, I actually had one of those (in wood) and found it so frustrating I sold it again in short order. We guessed it was a doubler's instrument. I think I know where it is and I could ask the buyers if they're tired of it yet. <wink>

I have lusted after some of the older sterling Haynes flutes that waft by from time to time on Ebay, but I most recently spent my available cash on a new iMac and software to help support my freelance writing, editing, and page layout career. (I was laid off 11/1/06, but 2007 was a pretty good year, for just starting out.)

Thanks for asking,
Marguerite

[Cork]

...Now I'm working on making the adjustment from my old wooden Boehm flute...

More than your new-to-you 6-key wood flute, that "old" wood Boehm flute got my attention. For instance, "old' wood flutes have not been made in the United States since about the year 1920, virtually all of which are pitched at A=435.

So, just to satisfy my curiosity, please, could you tell me something more about it? I am an open G# Boehm player, long accustomed to such "old" flutes, pitched at A=435, which indeed can be played at A=440, although I also have a couple of custom made, open G# silver flutes, of A=440 pitch.

TIA!

Bless your heart--I thought I'd bored everyone to death about my Boehm flutes.

My pride and joy is a 1916 Haynes (of Boston) with sterling silver keys (closed keys, offset G, C foot). It was indeed made to A=435 but I've pushed the head cork in (no doubt to the detriment of my octave tuning) and I can play at A=440 if I'm careful of not lipping flat. I have another, my first wooden Boehm, by H. Bettony of Boston. I suspect it was in a military band as it is stamped "USQMC" (best guess = U.S. Quartermaster Corps). I bought it nearly 30 years ago from my current flute-fixer's dad. He said it dated from the 1940s. I never saw a reason to doubt him, but it IS normally A=435 (head cork, again) and I have no documentation, whereas Haynes had the record of when the flute with my serial number was made.

Is an "open G#" one of those where you have to use your pinky to keep the key closed when I normally would use my pinky to add the G#/Ab when needed? If so, I actually had one of those (in wood) and found it so frustrating I sold it again in short order. We guessed it was a doubler's instrument. I think I know where it is and I could ask the buyers if they're tired of it yet. <wink>

I have lusted after some of the older sterling Haynes flutes that waft by from time to time on Ebay, but I most recently spent my available cash on a new iMac and software to help support my freelance writing, editing, and page layout career. (I was laid off 11/1/06, but 2007 was a pretty good year, for just starting out.)

Thanks for asking,
Marguerite

Nothing personal, Marguerite, but apparently we have things in common, more delightfully rare things in common, to boot.

For instance, when I mentioned "old" wood flutes, I had W.S.Haynes of Boston in mind. For instance, my Haynes flute of A=435 pitch was made in March of 1915, according to Haynes' records, closed keys, offset G, and C foot, with the exception that mine has an "open" G# key, and, yes, it is "push" to close. However, my Haynes flute is of coin silver, head, body, foot, and mechanism, and is within the first year of such silver flute production. And, I can easily understand your wood 1916 Haynes as being your pride and joy, my congratulations to you!

However, instead of moving the cork toward the embouchure, at the detriment of octave tuning, let me suggest another approach. That is, while leaving the cork in the normal/regular position, and with the understanding that an A=435 flute is slightly longer in body length, consider that the left hand tones are more or less in tune, and that the right hand tones tend to go somewhat flatter, so that little needs to be compensated for on the left hand, and that about all it takes to play in modern, A=440 tuning is to slightly sharpen the right hand tones. With such an approach, moreover, octaves simply fall into place, piece of cake. It's a matter of "lipping" it into A=440 tuning, easily done.

Oh, yeah, please let me know by PM if that other, open G# wood flute becomes available, and I could gladly respond with both cash and appreciation, thank you. After all, I don't have an open G# flute of wood.

Good to meet you, Marguerite!

Edit: PS, given the relative rarity of open G# Boehm players on all of planet Earth, perhaps I could be the only such open G# player on the C&F board, no kidding, and, if not, I'd like to hear from you!

Edit #2: This post got here by Mac.

[purplebekah]

Wow...what a coincidence! I was also 'googleing' online to find out more about this flute stamped Weikert that i have bought recently. Through my search i found this thread!

This one is believed (so far!) to be made around 1880's. All that is stamped that can be read is Weikert. There is something stamped below..i can only make out some of the lettering and the wording you were told '1st quality' seems to fit the letters i can make out. I bought it from an antique dealer in CA, USA - i am based in the UK.

The flute i have bought has an ivory mouthpiece, it's 27.5" long and has 18 holes. The fingering system is something i am not aware of. Though that does not mean it is nothing new - my knowledge of old flutes is non-existent really!

It also has a B-foot which i was surprised about considering the age of it.

I bought it because i loved the look of it...i just adore the mellow tone of wooden flutes. I'm not a professional player at all but shall enjoy figuring my way around the flute.

I have just sent it off to a restorer so it is playable. Fortunately there were no cracks to deal with, just pads and spring adjustments. I'm awaiting the return of it eagerly!!

Ill try to add some pictures, as i have just joined the site to reply to your message and am not sure how to post up pictures.

If you have found out anything else about these kind of flutes, ill be eager to hear about it.

What a great site this is! Look forward to reading the community posts

[purplebekah]

I have just discovered that i need my pics of the Weikert uploaded on a webpage to be able to link to it to show you.
That is something i don't currently have the facility to do....so for those interested if you would like to email me i can forward on the pictures.
My email is my username at hotmail dot com.

[purplebekah]

I found a way to link to the flute pic - woohoo!

[mvhplank]

Oh my--I think I was looking at that flute on Ebay, or at least one much like it. All those extra lever keys remind me of a clarinet--which would, of course, have a bell on the end, but that may give you a clue about how you would finger it.

It's lovely, and you're right about the wooden tone.

I guess I'll have to shoot some pictures and post them. I promise, this time (just not right this minute).

Marguerite

[Jon C.]

I found a way to link to the flute pic - woohoo!

Nice shoes too...

[mvhplank]

I found a way to link to the flute pic - woohoo!

Nice shoes too...

Indeed they are. I can never find nice loafers when I'm looking for them.



M

[Terry McGee]

This looks like it might be a form of Schwedlerflöte.

The Germans were the people who were least impressed by Boehm's 1847 cylindrical flute - they brought out the Reform flute - conical flutes with a metal head and bakelite lip plate, with lots of trill keys, but still essentially simple system. Schwedler took this idea further, adding tricks like an automated extra key that opens to sharpen F#, but closes for F natural. They kept this up until the 1930's until finally succumbing to the Boehm.

Terry

[jemtheflute]

Just referring back to the Boehm open G# digression above, look what I've just spotted on eBay - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0201571031 - it's quite a modern one (from 1960) so guaranteed to be A=440, and not wood, but what a flute! Should knock socks off a Haynes, I'd think? Cork, let us know how much you drool.........