CJ Dixon bags...

[ceadach]

So back to bag leather....

Pwt wrote:

So Elk, but how tanned and treated, and what grade or thickness. I need to make a new bag and some bellows sometime soon and would like to know what to ask for in some detail

.

This is something that I'm curious about too.

I've made a several bags and bellows that by rights should have worked, only to find that the leather itself leaked something mad. I was given (and rejected) most of the "recipes" for "air tight concoctions. Most of these formulas seemed to great ways to wreck decent reeds just waiting to happen. I was told that chrome tanned was the way to go, but is there another process which is better for bags???

I know we have a several kindly pipemakers and at least one bellows maker, and probably more lurking about. Perhaps they could take mercy on us poor DIYers and tell us what we are doing wrong! ( thanks!! )

[djm]

So Elk, but how tanned and treated, and what grade or thickness. I need to make a new bag and some bellows sometime soon and would like to know what to ask for in some detail.

Oh, man, let's not get into this one again. It is cow hide, treated through a process referred to as E.L.K. It is not elk hide.

There is an additional substance sprayed on it that makes it air-tight. That is the stuff used by L&M. Trouble is, L&M only sell wholesale, so you have to go through a pipemaker to get one of their stiched UP bags - or you can go to CJ for one of his rivetted UP bags.

This is like the Python skit about Miss Anne Elk (not "an elk") and her theory about the brontosaurus.

djm

[ceadach]

Oh, man, let's not get into this one again. It is cow hide, treated through a process referred to as E.L.K. It is not elk hide.

There is an additional substance sprayed on it that makes it air-tight. That is the stuff used by L&M. Trouble is, L&M only sell wholesale, so you have to go through a pipemaker to get one of their stiched UP bags - or you can go to CJ for one of his rivetted UP bags.

Understood. I've been using cow leather. From Tandy. It hasn't worked. Since construction of the bellows and bags was ruled out as a problem, one can conclude that 1.) the leather I've used is not treated in a manner that renders it airtight, or 2.) the leather was of the wrong grade or thickness. Or even that 3.) Some other method is employed to staunch the leather or possibly 4.) All of the above / 42.

Obviously, plenty of other great pipe bags and bellows have been made without acess to L&M's bag leather, likely including most active professional pipemakers. (and no offense meant to either L&M or Chris Dixon by this statement, they make lovely products.)

I have a batch of a different grade of thicker chrome tanned cow leather that I think will work well for bellows. ( In fetching motorbike jacket black I might add!) I'm just wondering what has worked for others as I believe is Pipewort.

[reedbiter]

Oh certainly, if the stocks don't fit properly or are not tied in tightly etc. then no leather or material will make a bit of a difference to the positive. But if the leather / bag material is in itself leaky and porous then it simply doesn't matter how well the stocks are tied in.

DOMINION TANNERS! THAT was the name of the Tannery in Canada that held the original patent etc. As of a few years ago they were filing for bankruptcy. I'm not sure if they re-organized or if the patent was sold to another company.

Personally, I have my bags made for me by L&M.I found hand stitching bags to be a complete waste of my time and hand strength and riveting has it's own drawbacks. Frankly I find the rivet "biker look" to be unattractive. (uh oh, now I've done it....!..where is my flame-retardant suit!)

[Cayden]

Certainly stitching is very hard on the hands but when done in the correct way with the correct materials will give the bag more strength and durability (Geoff Wooff gave me a crash course in bag making when he felt his hands were giving in and there are one or two Wooff sets out there there with bag I at least partly stitched).

I don't like riveted bags much either.

I think your touching there on the essence of my original post: the juxtaposition of prime material and workmanship that make up an end-product. If one of the two is mediocre, there's no saving grace in the other.

[Beau Comiseau]

I think your touching there on the essence of my original post: the juxtaposition of prime material and workmanship that make up an end-product. If one of the two is mediocre, there's no saving grace in the other.

Yes, indeed. With regard to your original post you have thence made several opaque references and hints that leave a person to read between the lines... Why don't you just say what you want to say with regard to your original post?!

[rorybbellows]

I think your touching there on the essence of my original post: the juxtaposition of prime material and workmanship that make up an end-product. If one of the two is mediocre, there's no saving grace in the other.

Yes, indeed. With regard to your original post you have thence made several opaque references and hints that leave a person to read between the lines... Why don't you just say what you want to say with regard to your original post?!

That just seems to be Peter,s style of posting ,like telling us that rowsome chanters have recognised flaws ,but refusing to say what tyey are !!!!


RORY

[Cayden]

That just seems to be Peter,s style of posting ,like telling us that rowsome chanters have recognised flaws ,but refusing to say what tyey are !!!!


RORY

You could also get off your lazy arse and search the archive for past discussions and find things like:

I was trying to make a case for looking at Rowsome chanters for what they are. Not suddenly take them for the superchanters they are not. I tried to bring across that I have an appreciation for a specific sound in them, basically because the pipers I listened to when starting out had that sound. Many years on now I listen to the instrument differently, I still hear the same pipers I used to listen to and still appreciate some tonal features in their playing I also now hear clearly the difficulties the chanter is presenting the players, the ugly octave E's the flappy back D, flat top G Wonky hard's.
Take them as I said for what they are, they have good features and bad ones, weigh them up and decide whether or no you'd want to play them

and no doubt there are many more occasions where I spelled things out.

As for CJ's bags:

at the start of this discussion I had a behind the screens discussion with the moderator in which I described a bag/bellows combination that landed in my kitchen recently. I said about them:

The bag leaked, not quite as much as when playing drones, but nearly so. The bellows were crudely made, the hinge so loose the clappers moved in all directions. The general workmanship was at best mediocre.

Our moderator would have preferred I posted that rather than joke about it as he agreed and thought it a fair assessment. I preferred to have left it at the joke at the start of this and would not have taken it any further.
But as you asked for it, repeatedly, there you have it. Happy now?

[Beau Comiseau]

Again, ennuendo... Do you mean to say that this was one of Chris' bags? If so, then where's the little froggie icon?

I don't understand you at all.

[Pipewort]

Just caught up with the replies, and thanks for the information. I guess the way forward now is to check out the patent.

Pwt

[mark2olson]

As for CJ's bags:

at the start of this discussion I had a behind the screens discussion with the moderator in which I described a bag/bellows combination that landed in my kitchen recently. I said about them:

The bag leaked, not quite as much as when playing drones, but nearly so. The bellows were crudely made, the hinge so loose the clappers moved in all directions. The general workmanship was at best mediocre.

I had a bag/bellows combination that landed in my kitchen recently. The bag, bellows, and stocks were crafted by CJ Dixon. Everything was airtight, the craftsmanship was, IMHO, good. The seams on the bag were airtight, the stocks were well tied-in and airtight, the bellows functioned very well and were airtight. I found that the general workmanship of all the pieces was very good (once again MHO). As a matter of fact, I inflated the bag and left the stocks corked overnight. I could have used the bag to play football, your variety or ours, in the morning.

[rorybbellows]

That just seems to be Peter,s style of posting ,like telling us that rowsome chanters have recognised flaws ,but refusing to say what tyey are !!!!


RORY

You could also get off your lazy arse and search the archive for past discussions and find things like:

I was trying to make a case for looking at Rowsome chanters for what they are. Not suddenly take them for the superchanters they are not. I tried to bring across that I have an appreciation for a specific sound in them, basically because the pipers I listened to when starting out had that sound. Many years on now I listen to the instrument differently, I still hear the same pipers I used to listen to and still appreciate some tonal features in their playing I also now hear clearly the difficulties the chanter is presenting the players, the ugly octave E's the flappy back D, flat top G Wonky hard's.
Take them as I said for what they are, they have good features and bad ones, weigh them up and decide whether or no you'd want to play them

and no doubt there are many more occasions where I spelled things out

Why would I do a search when I knew I could get you to do it for me !!


I heard Tommy Keane play at some charity gig with a concertina player ,his wooff set was miles out of tune ,is that geoff,s fault,

If people cannot reed their rowsome chanter properly dont blame rowsome!!

RORY

[srfmowman]

I hand stitched a new bag recently with chap leather from Tandy. I checked all the leather in the store with the "suck" method. Only the chap leather and upholstery leather was airtight. If you have a tax number you can buy everything wholesale.

The bag is airtight by the way.

John

[Joseph E. Smith]

As I have been reintroduced into this topic allow me to state that I found Peter's assessment to be fair and honest without defaming anyone... that is how I would rather criticism be noted in this (and all ) fora, but let me iterate that as I had not witnessed, nor kicked the tires of the bag/bellows in question, I cannot speak for them.

I, until recently, owned a set of bellows by Chris, and while I used them they served me well. They were robust and maintained a good supply of gas to the bag. I have since been told they are leaking which is news to me, but if the fellow who purchased them would only respond to my emails, I will find a way to set that matter straight... but that's another story.

Before we carried away again, I wish to point out that what has been done and said is exactly that... done and said. I have been in private communication with all parties (except Chris), and an understanding has been reached.

It is my wish that this be the end of public discussion about Peter's 'style', or anyone else's for that matter.


Thanks.


edited to add:


... feel free to publically discuss Rory's style however.

[ceadach]

I hand stitched a new bag recently with chap leather from Tandy. I checked all the leather in the store with the "suck" method. Only the chap leather and upholstery leather was airtight. If you have a tax number you can buy everything wholesale.

The bag is airtight by the way.

John

John,
Thanks for the tip!!!