Brass or Nickel silver ferrules and fittings

djm · Post by **djm** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:53 am

Meanwhile, I prefer to roll my own.

djm

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:11 am

...stoner.

stew · Post by **stew** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:23 am

The work involved in rolling stainless steel and seam welding it into 11.5mm and other sizes of tubing is far to complex, for which the pipemaker really needs, requireing tools and machines to do the job would totaly out cost the benefit of having them, more like he knows of a workshop where they will roll the stainless steel and seam weld it into tubeing for his requirements, or he knows a manufacturer who supplie's tubing in various sizes, which some he can use for his requirements with just a small amount of welding if any at all needed. Maybe its a mark of todays pipe makers, and there skills with modern materials, but there again they might as well roll nickel silver its easier than working with stainless steel I would have thought, but at the end of the day the purpose of the ferrule is 1. to help stop the wood splitting and 2.to help give a good "sealing joint" where required. "And No its not to smoke on the sealing"

. But each maker puts his decoration on the mounts to make them more attractive.
all the best Stew.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:06 am

quote: "And No its not to smoke on the sealing".
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......now that's just no damn fun at all!!

rorybbellows · Post by **rorybbellows** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:18 am

Of course Froment and williams roll their own steel tubing ,they are craftsmen arent they? they also slaughter their own cows and cure the leather ,they go to africa and fell their own timber and have been know to take the odd trip to Siberia and dig their own fossilised mammoth ivory after all they craftsmen arent they and thats what craftsmen do.
why else would you be paying all that money and waiting all that time for their pipes

RORY

reedman · Post by **reedman** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:51 am

HHmm, I think you've got a point there Rory.

Jim McGuire · Post by **Jim McGuire** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:55 am

Tubing certainly brings a lot of benefits to the pipemaker - availability and price. One of the 'looks' that is lost in that process from the 1800s is that many pieces in a set of pipes made then were tapered. My Taylor chanter top has a nice taper effect and that process is/was probably time consuming. Only was to make those ferrules fit is to do them by hand. There's an elegance in old instruments that is quite striking.

Whether or not that look is worth seeking out is up to the individual. Those older sets did not have to sit and play with accordians, concertinas, etc ('foreign music' according to Francis O'Neill - not hard to imagine where he is on bouzoukis). Modern chanters have the advantage of modern tuning sensibilities.

marcpipes · Post by **marcpipes** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:28 am

Although I might be disregarded, as I have not been a pipe maker for long, I have been a metalsmith for twelve years. I hand roll some of my ferrules, occasionally use stock tubing(though I don't like the color of that brass alloy as much) or cast them in brass, silver or bronze. In truth, it's not far off from making regular jewelry. But pipes don't swell and shrink quite as much as some of my customers fingers do on their monthly lunar freakouts. It's more a matter of personal taste and structural need in deciding which techinque I use. Casting is my favorite because I'm a dedicated pyromaniac. I don't like welding, so steel is right out.
Marc

Jim McGuire · Post by **Jim McGuire** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:55 am

Both Brad Angus and Geoff Wooff roll their own tubing. Brad works with both brass and nickel silver (a copper alloy with nickel and zinc). I think I heard that Geoff executed a set in sterling silver, too.

stew · Post by **stew** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:29 am

Hi Jim, I agree that tubing has brought lots of benefits to the pipemaker,
But if fitted correctly can look as good as hand rolled ferrules in my opinion, I have seen some lovely sets made with quality tubeing,But there again I've seen sets made with hand rolled ferrules that have looked a right pile of shight, it comes down the pipemaker and how they are fitted on to the turned wood, As I have said before the ferrule is only there to stop the wood spitting,Hand rooled ferrules don't make the set play any better. all the best.

Jim McGuire · Post by **Jim McGuire** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:27 am

The fit achieved by pipemakers with tubing is fine but it does lock them into using one size of tubing. On my Taylor top (and you often see it on other 19th century instruments), the uppermost part of the top gently tapers down and that overall effect is 'pleasing to the eye'. That effect is not achievable if one uses tubing at the top and bottom of the chanter top as the tubing is identical in size. The tubing fits the wood perfectly but a taper is not possible.

Geoff and Brad (and there may be others), by not using tubing, are able to replicate the old look of pipes from the 19th century by rolling his own metal. I do know that is important to them.

Many, many dozens and thousands of touches have been lost in the process of industrialization and mass production. I went through some restoration details concerning my 1920s vintage condo and it is possible to do some replacement pieces exactly but it is difficult to find craftsmen to do the work and, if you do, you cannot be concerned about cost containment and/or effectiveness. If only my condo builder had anticipated my need in the 21st century for central air.

stew · Post by **stew** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:24 am

Jim, if tradition is so important to these guys, why do pipemakers and
reedmakers and pipers use tubeing for there reeds, why dont they hand roll there staples the old way, the traditionalist tubeing for ferrules "O NO" can't have, that but then again its all right to use for reeds making, and yes I know there are still old time fantasizers out there with aids up there bores, and they love it

, all most pipers want today is {1} a set that plays well in tune with its self,{2}well made, {3} and looks good

without having to pay a fortune for

, thats all pipers want, Seamus Ennis's set did'nt have lots of nickle or silver decor all over them. its the piper that plays the tune at the end of the day.

all the best.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:38 am

qoute: "Jim, if tradition is so important to these guys, why do pipemakers and
reedmakers and pipers use tubeing for there reeds, why dont they hand roll there staples the old way, the traditionalist tubeing for ferrules "O NO" can't have, that but then again its all right to use for reeds making"
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There are many who roll their own staples, they actually prefer it to store bought tubing. Again, a pipemaker's input on this thread would be valuable. I honestly do not see makers like Froment, Woof, Angus, Gallagher and so forth, hiking down to the hobby shop to buy tubing, of any material, to use on their pipes.

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:50 am

I have not noticed that anyone who has actually made a set or 20 of pipes has chimed in yet, so allow me. First, yes some brave soles actually do use rolled staples for their UP reeds (and other pipes as well) to get the proper taper. Benedict Koehler is one for sure and few would say that he is not an incredible reed maker. If tubing works for a chanter, great, use it, but some chanters work better with a rolled staple. I do not know this from my UP experience, but am relying on Benedicts word on this.

On the tapering of ferrules I can actually speak from my own knowledge as relates to building lots of sets of Northumbrian smallpipes. Visualize a tapered ferrule as it slides onto a tapered end of a piece of wood which has been covered with adhesive. The whole ferrule "comes home" all a the same time and the whole inner surface of the ferrule is bonded to the whole surface of the wood with the adhesive. Only excess squeezes out. This joint will last a very long time yet remain removable if need be. Now visualize sliding a piece of tubing over a cylindrical piece of wood, also covered with adhesive. The sliding action means that the first section of tubing that goes over the wood pushes the adhesive along, leaving the last section of tubing that goes over the wood precious little adhesive. You get a very uneven distribution of adhesive, not as good as the tapered fit. The pipemakers of old actually made those tapers for a reason, not just to look pretty (which they do). Nothing wrong really with using tubing but don't think for a minute that this is not a cost-saving trade off of a structural nature.

Thanks for listening.

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:11 am

I got a private message related to my last post, suggesting that I was criticizing sets made with tubing. That was not my intent. I was merely pointing out that there is a legitimate structural reason to use tapered ferrules. If you use tubing, you have to (or should) compensate for the structural difference. One maker who I know for a fact does this is Kirk Lynch, who makes really good pipes of course. He compensates by leaving a small (.003-.005") "bump" in the wood just before the innermost part of the wood that the tubing will slide over. This give a mechanical lock of the ferrule onto the wood and he in fact has to force the ferrule over it to achieve this. He uses epoxy both as an adhesive and as the lubricant for this forcing process. Hope that satisfies.