Doug's octave fiddle-a new folk instrument?

[Doug_Tipple]

Hi everyone,

I realize that the flute forum ought to be about flutes, but, nevertheless, I wanted to share this non-flute idea with readers of the flute forum. There may be some closet string players mixed in with the flute crowd. I also would appreciate any suggestions about a more appropriate place to post this idea.

At my webspace below I have posted a short article and photo of how to make an octave fiddle. Do you think that this could be considered a new folk instrument?

http://home.earthlink.net/~life2all/dougswebspace

Best wishes, happy fluting (and fiddling),
Doug Tipple

[Unseen122]

Next you should try a Bozouki Fiddle double strings tuned in octave just an idea.

[chas]

I'm not sure whether it's the same thing, but Eliza Carthy plays something called a "monster fiddle," it can be heard in the version of 10000 miles on her Heat light and sound album. I believe the notes cite who makes it.

[andrew]

What you are looking for is the Parramon viola ,which was made at the right theoretical length for a viola ( 21 inch back ) in the first decades of the last century ,but is played with an endpin .It has tuning a fifth below the viola ,and has been written for by a number of 20th C. Spanish composers .The last one I saw sold went for £620 many years ago , but had a repaired crack ,I believe , in the back .I think it is the way violas should be played .There are many too big to play without damaging oneself , but can soon be adapted .It is probably easier to play vertically , as the guitar seems to be .

[Steven]

Hi Doug. Interesting experiment. I have come across a couple of other relevant instruments.

Karen Hirshon of Simple Gifts plays an instrument she calls an octave violin. Basically it's just a regular fiddle with some special octave strings that apparently you can order, although they're quite expensive. She let my wife play it once, and she said it rattled her teeth, the vibrations were so low and powerful.

A friend of mine got an instrument last year called a tenor violin. It's kind of similar to your octave fiddle, except that it's not a cello. It's specifically built by a luthier as a low fiddle, so the body is not as deep as on a cello. It's proportioned more like a regular fiddle, but larger, about the size of yours, and it is held between the legs much like a cello. I don't know the name of the luthier who made it, unfortunately, although she'll probably bring it to the open band night at our local English country dance group next week, so I could ask her then if you want (and if I remember).


Steven

[Jack Bradshaw]

Think you might want to check out the references to Carleen Hutchins' Instruments at the National Music Museum.

If I remember right the viola corresponds (roughly) to the 1/8 cello and the octave to the 1/4, both played on a stick, cello-like. Seems the body volumes had to be adjusted some what to get the right air resonance mode and the strings, of course.

I keep thinking these would both be fun things to make up in a Savart (trapazoidal) style; (a. easy to make and (b. look a lot more folksy

[Doug_Tipple]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your comments and suggestions regarding my posting about the octave fiddle. I have done a little internet research on the subject, and, to my surprise, there is a growing interest in the octave violin or fiddle, although most of the instruments are similar to the standard fiddle, but equipped with heavier strings. I am going to provide a few links below.

For anyone wanting to convert a standard fiddle to an octave fiddle, Supper Sensitive String Company in Florida makes strings for the octave violin. Their strings have a perlon (synthetic fiber) core and are wrapped with four different metals: E titanium, A silver, D tungsten, and G Nickel. The price for the set is about $52. They also make a low C string ($21.98) if you happen to have a five-string fiddle. This low C would be equivalent to the low C string on a cello. Below is a link where you can purchase the strings. One caution, however, from the American Dental Association is that playing an octave violin in the traditional under-the-chin method has been shown to loosen silver fillings.

http://www.juststrings.com

Neil Brookes, fiddler and dance caller in Cheshire, UK gives his comments on the octave fiddle on his webpage.

http://www.brookes36.freeserve.co.uk/violins.htm

Chip Dunbar is a musician and arranger in California. His webpage has streaming audio of some of his tunes featuring the octave violin. I recommend the first tune on the page.

http://www.songpeddler.com/chipdunbar

I haven’t had a chance to explore the suggestions about other instruments (modern and antique) that are played upright on a peg like a cello. Also, when my bowing arm gets in better condition, I hope to post an Irish tune playing my octave fiddle. That way, no one will laugh at my lousy Irish flute technique.

Happy fluting and fiddling,
Doug Tipple

[tin tin]

Darol Anger has an informative article on the octave, or baritone, violin.
http://www.darolanger.com/bariton.html

[TheSpoonMan]

Apologies if there's a board policy against resurrecting old topics (I looked and didn't seem to see one), but.

I've been wanting to learn some kind of octave fiddle for a long time- fiddle's too high, cello's C string I don't have much use for, and my band needs a bass instrument that isn't piano. I'm usually the random-instrument-guy in the group, and I love cello, this seems like a good idea for me. So I'm thinking of getting either a 1/4-size cello and restringing it to GDAE, or getting a fiddle and fitting it with octave strings. So questions:

1. Does a 1/4 size cello, stringed with strings of that size, play the same actual pitches as a 4/4 size? That is, if I strung a 1/4 size cello with 1/4 size GDAE strings (or a guitar E, whatever I used), would the open strings acutally play concert pitch GDAE? This seems counterintuitive to me, but I don't know squat abotu cellos

2. For that matter, how big is a 1/4 size cello? How long is it from top to bottom, and bridge to nut?

3. Now, part of the reason I wanna try some form of cello, is that after school last year I would sneak into the bandroom a few times a week and fiddle around with the cellos tehre. I never got good, but it was fun, and I got the basics partway down. So say I tried the violin with octave strings. Would it be idiotic for me to try that, not playing normal fiddle to start with? The technique would be different (for one thing I'd play it upright, I like it better that way), and I'm pretty good at learning instruments, but would it be a lost cause from the start?

4. If I did eitehr of these, the instruments I'd get would be cheap chinese models, set up but still cheap. No way around that; I don't make enough money for anything better, and I have other expenses. So, in the case of the violin, would doing that kill the instrument?

Thanks!

[Doug_Tipple]

1. Does a 1/4 size cello, stringed with strings of that size, play the same actual pitches as a 4/4 size? That is, if I strung a 1/4 size cello with 1/4 size GDAE strings (or a guitar E, whatever I used), would the open strings acutally play concert pitch GDAE? This seems counterintuitive to me, but I don't know squat abotu cellos

2. For that matter, how big is a 1/4 size cello? How long is it from top to bottom, and bridge to nut?

Yes, the 1/4 cello plays the same pitches as a full size cello, however, as would be expected, the lower notes on the smaller cello do not have as much resonance and volume as the 4/4 cello. However, the A and E strings on the 1/4 cello are very nice for playing melody.

The distance from the nut to the bridge on my 1/4 size cello is 21 1/2 incles, and the total length of the instrument is 37 inches, which is about the same size as a classical guitar. Good luck on your experimentation.

[TheSpoonMan]

Sorry for the delayed response, but thanks!

Another question for you, Mr. Tipple (or anyone else who knows)-

On your site you mentioned that you had to make some adjustment to the nut and the bridge. What kinds of adjustments were these, and... well, would a 16-year-old with minimal experience with woodworking be able to make them? Thanks.

[Doug_Tipple]

As with any lower-cost instrument purchased from the internet, some adjustment to the bridge and nut will be necessary. On the 1/4 size Chinese cello that I purchased, I needed to lower bridge and nut and to make the string notches smaller for the smaller octave fiddle strings. These adjustments can be easily done by anyone with basic woodworking skills, in my opinion. Happy fiddling.

[TheSpoonMan]

As with any lower-cost instrument purchased from the internet, some adjustment to the bridge and nut will be necessary. On the 1/4 size Chinese cello that I purchased, I needed to lower bridge and nut and to make the string notches smaller for the smaller octave fiddle strings. These adjustments can be easily done by anyone with basic woodworking skills, in my opinion. Happy fiddling.

I'm probably just tired and not thinking straight but... I think I'd know how to do the first one, but how would one make the string notches smaller, if they're already cut?

[Doug_Tipple]

I'm probably just tired and not thinking straight but... I think I'd know how to do the first one, but how would one make the string notches smaller, if they're already cut?

The string notches may not be cut very deeply in either the nut or the bridge. If such is the case, when you lower the nut and the bridge with files or a sanding paddle, you will have the liberty of re-sizing the string notches. Otherwise you will need to use a spacer, such as paper, to keep the smaller strings from buzzing in the notches. To avoid this problem it is a good idea not the cut the string notches too deeply, just enough to hold the strings in position.

[TheSpoonMan]

I'm probably just tired and not thinking straight but... I think I'd know how to do the first one, but how would one make the string notches smaller, if they're already cut?

The string notches may not be cut very deeply in either the nut or the bridge. If such is the case, when you lower the nut and the bridge with files or a sanding paddle, you will have the liberty of re-sizing the string notches. Otherwise you will need to use a spacer, such as paper, to keep the smaller strings from buzzing in the notches. To avoid this problem it is a good idea not the cut the string notches too deeply, just enough to hold the strings in position.

Oh, excellent. I see now. Thanks for the help!